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The Self Defence issue in Australia.

What's on your mind? Lets get the community talking.
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robmajor7
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Re: The Self Defence issue in Australia.

Post by robmajor7 » Thu May 30, 2019 1:57 pm

Hey Keith and thanks for the reply...Yep center mass it is for sure...Without saying too much here, saw a cop (in the dark continent), emptying his 9mm CZ75 onto a guy's chest, but he kept on coming...Now that's 13 rounds. The guy obviously was on some cocktail of drugs. So even the double-tap they taught/teach is not effective in these situations. However, I'd rather have a 9mm than nothing....Thing is, If a scumbag enters your home armed and wanting to rape your wife/daughter, are you supposed to just pick up the phone and dial 000? That's what infuriates me. In cases where they guy's armed, you should be able to reduce the threat by any means at your disposal, after all your home is your domain...I saw your petition and will sign it for sure. We need to push these things as much as we need to..Only way..
All of the best.



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Frostbite
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Re: The Self Defence issue in Australia.

Post by Frostbite » Thu May 30, 2019 3:18 pm

Don't forget the anchor shot. I love my CZ SP01.



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Keith
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Re: The Self Defence issue in Australia.

Post by Keith » Thu May 30, 2019 4:48 pm

robmajor7 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:57 pm
Hey Keith and thanks for the reply...Yep center mass it is for sure...Without saying too much here, saw a cop (in the dark continent), emptying his 9mm CZ75 onto a guy's chest, but he kept on coming...Now that's 13 rounds. The guy obviously was on some cocktail of drugs. So even the double-tap they taught/teach is not effective in these situations. However, I'd rather have a 9mm than nothing....Thing is, If a scumbag enters your home armed and wanting to rape your wife/daughter, are you supposed to just pick up the phone and dial 000? That's what infuriates me. In cases where they guy's armed, you should be able to reduce the threat by any means at your disposal, after all your home is your domain...I saw your petition and will sign it for sure. We need to push these things as much as we need to..Only way..
All of the best.
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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less travelled by,
and that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost.
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com.au/
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robmajor7
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Re: The Self Defence issue in Australia.

Post by robmajor7 » Thu May 30, 2019 5:10 pm

Frostbite wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:18 pm
Don't forget the anchor shot. I love my CZ SP01.
Roger that....He was gone and just didn't realize it...it's a bit disconcerting when things like these happen and you stand there with an empty weapon thinking..did I miss ALL the shots? :shock: :shock:
Yeah love the CZs..pricy though!
Cheers!!



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Warrigal
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Re: The Self Defence issue in Australia.

Post by Warrigal » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:49 am

I personally consider our governments attitude towards self defence to be myopic, unreasonable and unjust.

That being said the governments policy on this matter is law and that is the uncomfortable reality we must contend with unless or until the legal policy of TPTB changes.

I am a Martial Artist, also former tactical instructor of many years experience and have no illusions as to the nasty realities of civilian self defence and have no illusions that my M/A skills could keep me alive much less uninjured in a circumstance in which my assailants are multiple and or armed even with contact ranged weapons such as knives or bludgeons.

Realistically, no serious attacker is going to be dumb enough to make his evil intent known to you when you are standing with ypur shotty or whatever at the port arms.

Stealth, cunning and utter ruthlessnes on the part of any post-SHTF attacker/s is just about a certainty.

Few if any Survivalists I have met fantasise about fighting invading Armies although just about all of them have very real and well justified concerns that our biggest danger is the disappearance of the rule of law and the loss of every remaining vestige of civility on the part of many, possible even most, of our fellow citizens especially those who made no preps of their own along with more ordinary oportunistic criminals.

Legally speaking we still have a Common law right to self defence which may in extremis involve the use of deadly weapons providing that our use of force is proportionate to the level of force used against.

ANY use of force WILL be tested in a court of law this you had better believe!

Where things get really deep and meanigful is the current legal regimes refusal to permit citizens to either keep or carry ANY instrument for the purposes of self defence.

Even something as mundane as a pen or pencil can and will be construed for the purposes of law to be weapon if you admit to carrying it for self defence or Police suspect "reasonably" that you were carrying it for self defence.

I consider very strange that any rural Survivalists would express misgivings over city dwellers owning firearms!

City dwellers always have as long as I have been alive and city dwellers are no more nor less reponsible than the man on the land.

However, on average. I think it true to say that fewer city slickers are gun owners than folk who live in the countryside.

Criminals are a very different kettle of fish and criminals already have access to serious firepower even now law or no law!

Pepper sprays, foams etc, can be viable non lethal or "less lethal" weapons and MOST of the worlds jurisdictions including many which disallow the carriage of firearms and/or knives, batons etc, permit the carriage of pepper spray by private citizens for self defence but unfortunately Australia does not.

The law does regard the use of a "weapon of opportunity" to be legitimate in self defence providing the level of force used by the defender was proportionate to the level of force used by the assailant.

Translation: You have a right to get lucky only!

The above sums up our governments attitude to civilian self defence.

To my mind that is most unresonable but some of you may share the official view.

If so I welcome your comments.



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Grumpy
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Re: The Self Defence issue in Australia.

Post by Grumpy » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:08 am

Having legal access to weapons for defence would apply to the bad guys as well as the good guys!
I am inclined to like the existing legal setup with maybe a little fine tuning in the justifiable killing/ castle area.

Any law enabling defence also empowers the attacker, the way it is works well, not perfect but well



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Frostbite
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Re: The Self Defence issue in Australia.

Post by Frostbite » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:23 am

Why stress about semantics?

The law doesn't provide for owning a gun for self defence. Who cares? The law allows you to own a gun for hunting or target shooting and the law safeguards your right to use that gun to defend yourself, providing you meet two simple requirements.

The only issue I can see is some people's mental incapacity to understand how the law works.



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Warrigal
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Re: The Self Defence issue in Australia.

Post by Warrigal » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:20 am

Hi Grumpy and Frostbite and thank you both for sharing your thoughts.

While I understand where you are coming from Gumpy I cannot help but feel that you have failed to grasp the thrust of this discussion.

Criminals do not obey laws which is why they are criminals by any legal or ethical measurement you wish to apply and are already well armed illegally even now.

Indeed they are often better armed than any honest person and post-SHTF will be an even more serious threat than now!

Any law which enables armed defence benefits only those individuals who observe and obey the laws.

Criminals ignore laws.

Frostbite.

You make a very good point.

The law denies us the option of firearm ownership for self defence yet paradoxically still grudgingly recognises that under extreme circumstance legally owned weapons whether these be firearms or non fireams WILL be used for legitimate and legally acceptable self defence.

We are as you say still permited to keep and use firearms for sporting purposes and any legally owned firearms in a SHTF situation especially can and will be used for self defence as or when/if required.

Thus I agree that it essential to be reliably informed as to the manner in which the law judges such cases and also to be prperly armed prior to any SHTF.



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Keith
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Re: The Self Defence issue in Australia.

Post by Keith » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:15 pm

Warrigal wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:20 am
Hi Grumpy and Frostbite and thank you both for sharing your thoughts.

While I understand where you are coming from Gumpy I cannot help but feel that you have failed to grasp the thrust of this discussion.

Criminals do not obey laws which is why they are criminals by any legal or ethical measurement you wish to apply and are already well armed illegally even now.

Indeed they are often better armed than any honest person and post-SHTF will be an even more serious threat than now!

Any law which enables armed defence benefits only those individuals who observe and obey the laws.

Criminals ignore laws.

Frostbite.

You make a very good point.

The law denies us the option of firearm ownership for self defence yet paradoxically still grudgingly recognises that under extreme circumstance legally owned weapons whether these be firearms or non fireams WILL be used for legitimate and legally acceptable self defence.

We are as you say still permited to keep and use firearms for sporting purposes and any legally owned firearms in a SHTF situation especially can and will be used for self defence as or when/if required.

Thus I agree that it essential to be reliably informed as to the manner in which the law judges such cases and also to be prperly armed prior to any SHTF.
If you use a firearm to protect your family or yourself in a home invasion, you will lose your license & have your guns confiscated. This is a fact & that is what has been happening to date. You don't even have to fire the gun, or even have it loaded. If in any way it is used to intimidate a home invader, you will lose your guns & your firearms license. Only one bloke so far as I know has managed to get his guns back, & it cost him a lot of money to fight the case against him.
Keith.


Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less travelled by,
and that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost.
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com.au/
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Warrigal
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Re: The Self Defence issue in Australia.

Post by Warrigal » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:46 pm

What you say is perfectly true Keith and while the situation is highly unjust IMO it is the law and constitutes the rules of the game as we must play them at present.

Seld defence is and cannot be anything other than a complex and inherently treacherous area of the law so I personally advocate that avoidence strategies be the first line of all civilian defence.

You do not even have to own a firearm or to have used one in self defence to be prohibited from ever legally owning one.

The mere fact that you ever used a weapon of any sort, however justified you may have been, can be more than sufficient for that!

There are many ways to protect property before SHTF with insurence being principle among them.

Property can be replaced.

Life or limb cannot!

Post SHTF the ground rules are certain to be "different" although they certainly won't be better.

As you point out even if you acted reasonably in the circumstance and are legally cleared of wrongdoing by a court of law, the very cost of your legal defence may well be enough to financially ruin you.



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