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What firearms would best suit our Aussie scenario?

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Keith
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Re: What firearms would best suit our Aussie scenario?

Post by Keith » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:55 am

Sir Eoin O'Fada wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:05 pm
Personally, I'd have a bolt action .22 rf rifle and a 20 gauge shotgun.
One can carry a lot of .22rf ammo and far more smokeless powder to reload shot shells.
Forget muzzleloaders as black powder is bulky, charge for charge with smokeless.

Muzzleloaders have no advantages over smokeless breechloaders, that's the reason that they are only used nowadays for a bit of fun.
Nostalgia will never win out over practicality.

I tend to favour the bow and spear as practical survival weapons.
It is quite obvious that you know little to nothing about muzzle-loading guns. It is also very obvious that you are trying to provoke.
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Keith.


Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less travelled by,
and that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost.
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com.au/
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Sir Eoin O'Fada
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Re: What firearms would best suit our Aussie scenario?

Post by Sir Eoin O'Fada » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:39 am

Keith,

I have no desire to provoke.
What I said is what I truly believe and as for experience with MLs, I've been using them for many years and have both flint and percussion guns and also a matchlock.
The matchlock is superior to the flint for speed of ignition and reliability.

In a shtf situation, once the powder runs out then it matters not what type of firearm one has, all are equally useless, except for recycling as pipes.



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Keith
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Re: What firearms would best suit our Aussie scenario?

Post by Keith » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:45 am

Sir Eoin O'Fada wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:39 am
Keith,

I have no desire to provoke.
What I said is what I truly believe and as for experience with MLs, I've been using them for many years and have both flint and percussion guns and also a matchlock.
The matchlock is superior to the flint for speed of ignition and reliability.

In a shtf situation, once the powder runs out then it matters not what type of firearm one has, all are equally useless, except for recycling as pipes.
Thank you for the reply, now I know you don't know what you are talking about. For someone who supposedly owns muzzle-loading guns, you have not learnt much from the use of them.
Seeing as I am not a moderator on this forum, I can fortunately afford to put you on my ignore list :)
Keith.


Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less travelled by,
and that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost.
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com.au/
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Re: What firearms would best suit our Aussie scenario?

Post by Sir Eoin O'Fada » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:58 pm

But I have learnt a lot from the use of them, particularly that they are great fun to use but are, sadly, outmoded technology
Forget about making Black powder, in a post shtf scenario, it'd be virtually impossible, far better to stock up on powders before anything goes awry.

Keith,
You don't need to answer my posts as they are not aimed at you, you could,
however, do yourself a favour by reading them, on the quiet, and learning.



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notasyoung
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Re: What firearms would best suit our Aussie scenario?

Post by notasyoung » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:42 pm

.22WMR (because on a property dingo's/dog that come round the house are always 'just out of range' of a .22!), and .410 (because its light, simple, and a cheap Boito double barrel, double trigger, does the job [especially if you ream the right barrel to open it up!]). You can go .30-30 lever, or .44magnum lever, for pigs, and old .303 is handy because it is tough as nails, and shoots better than most people. .308 bolt action is also good for horses, donkeys, cattle, and its common. But I come back to the .410 solid for doing a killer, where the range is short (e.g. 10 feet, head shot, proper shot placement is always key), same when you have to destroy a horse, safely.
In your semi-rural areas the .410 solid isn't as noisy as some, the round doesn't exit the head but just drops them on the spot, and in something like a Marlin lever action is a great short range (scrub) pig gun. Impact isn't that different to a .44M at 25/30 metres, but the recoil is less. The advantage of the .410 solid is that it runs out of steam rapidly, and well within 500m has hit the dirt, stopped (spotlighting at night, you can see the round bounce a few times, and be stopped within sight), which is half the maximum range of a .22lr. The rub is the cost, but if you shop around, and find what your shotgun likes, you can usually find a cheaper deal. The tightness of pattern of some breeds of OOO buck is also an eye opener, out of a decent .410.
When we used to be legally allowed to hunt ducks, you had to stalk in with the .410, or be very still and patient, waiting, it would seem that the newer, denser shot than lead, loads, such as Tungsten Super Shot, in .410 will increase the viable range.
The .22lr sub-sonic (or even just the normal old .22lr lead projectile round, which is actually sub-sonic out of a long barrel) out a heavy barrel is very useful at short range, if you have rabbits. Stuff all noise, and accurate. The .22WMR sub-sonic seems to have a very different impact point at 50m (out of my rifle, anyway), so isn't so useful. a footnote here, rim fires are ammunition sensitive, find what yours likes (because the difference is amazing), and buy a brick!
So, in order, .22WMR, .410, .22lr, then whatever. I would assume most properties will also have a 12g somewhere (good for most things, but often a light shotgun that kicks like a mule, without a recoil pad, sometimes there's just that or a .22). Those firearms are there because they work, and have worked, for many years. You will find .223's, .243's etc. For practical use, I come back to the .22WMR and the .410.



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Re: What firearms would best suit our Aussie scenario?

Post by Keith » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:35 pm

notasyoung wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:42 pm
.22WMR (because on a property dingo's/dog that come round the house are always 'just out of range' of a .22!), and .410 (because its light, simple, and a cheap Boito double barrel, double trigger, does the job [especially if you ream the right barrel to open it up!]). You can go .30-30 lever, or .44magnum lever, for pigs, and old .303 is handy because it is tough as nails, and shoots better than most people. .308 bolt action is also good for horses, donkeys, cattle, and its common. But I come back to the .410 solid for doing a killer, where the range is short (e.g. 10 feet, head shot, proper shot placement is always key), same when you have to destroy a horse, safely.
In your semi-rural areas the .410 solid isn't as noisy as some, the round doesn't exit the head but just drops them on the spot, and in something like a Marlin lever action is a great short range (scrub) pig gun. Impact isn't that different to a .44M at 25/30 metres, but the recoil is less. The advantage of the .410 solid is that it runs out of steam rapidly, and well within 500m has hit the dirt, stopped (spotlighting at night, you can see the round bounce a few times, and be stopped within sight), which is half the maximum range of a .22lr. The rub is the cost, but if you shop around, and find what your shotgun likes, you can usually find a cheaper deal. The tightness of pattern of some breeds of OOO buck is also an eye opener, out of a decent .410.
When we used to be legally allowed to hunt ducks, you had to stalk in with the .410, or be very still and patient, waiting, it would seem that the newer, denser shot than lead, loads, such as Tungsten Super Shot, in .410 will increase the viable range.
The .22lr sub-sonic (or even just the normal old .22lr lead projectile round, which is actually sub-sonic out of a long barrel) out a heavy barrel is very useful at short range, if you have rabbits. Stuff all noise, and accurate. The .22WMR sub-sonic seems to have a very different impact point at 50m (out of my rifle, anyway), so isn't so useful. a footnote here, rim fires are ammunition sensitive, find what yours likes (because the difference is amazing), and buy a brick!
So, in order, .22WMR, .410, .22lr, then whatever. I would assume most properties will also have a 12g somewhere (good for most things, but often a light shotgun that kicks like a mule, without a recoil pad, sometimes there's just that or a .22). Those firearms are there because they work, and have worked, for many years. You will find .223's, .243's etc. For practical use, I come back to the .22WMR and the .410.
NAY, I didn't know you can get solids for a .410, learnt something today. Are they readily available, common?
Keith.


Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less travelled by,
and that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost.
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com.au/
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Re: What firearms would best suit our Aussie scenario?

Post by notasyoung » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:37 pm

Keith, .410 solid rounds are quite common, and sometimes quite expensive, often sold in 5 shot packets. I prefer Winchester. The 2 1/2 inch solids are usually 1/5 ounce, and fits the Marlin and Henry levers, and the 3" use 1/4 ounce solids. They are motoring out of the barrel, like a 3.57/.44M, but slow down fast as they aren't very aerodynamic. They are accurate out of some, not so much out of others. There are also two common OOO SG rounds around, in 2 1/2 and 3", Federal and Winchester. The federal seem to give a tighter pattern in my shotguns. You can also buy a Mould and cast your own solid, (or cheat and use a 38/40 slug, cause they're actually .40). Cast slugs really need a hollow base to stabilise. The .410 case can be fireformed in brass, out of a fired .303 case (makes a 2 1/2"), or 9.3x74R brass makes 3" (you need to take a couple of thou off the head with a lathe to get them to load easily, in mine), or I've read you can use .444 brass for about a 2" .410, also. You need to check the restriction of your barrel (the choke), when mucking around with this. The fins you see on some slugs are there to compress as it passes through the choke (not to make it spin). There are also quite a few 'self defence' rounds about, designed for the Taurus Judge pistol market in USA. Some of those actually perform well out of a shotgun. All these rounds have virtually no felt recoil, and use stuff all shot and powder, or a simple slug, which means they are fun and cheap to reload, which become important as you get older!! Bear in mind we are talking 'shotgun range' (e.g. close). I get away with loading my reloads a tad warm, with solids, because the .410 Marlin lever is actually a 336 rifle (higher pressure), with a barrel that looks like it was turned out of an axle! So pressure I can achieve with shotgun loads isn't that big an issue. Hope that helps.



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Re: What firearms would best suit our Aussie scenario?

Post by notasyoung » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:49 pm

Keith, I suppose you could say the the smooth bore shotgun, with a solid, is the next step in progression from a musket. It doesn't have the concern about powder choking the bore, because you use a smokeless powder, the reload is faster, but the characteristics of the round are similar to a musket, in that it is non-rotating, but generally slides down the barrel inside a cup, which falls away at exit. The advantage of a double barrel is two shots (two different chokes), and with two triggers, you can choose between a shot, or a solid, if that is how you set it up.



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Re: What firearms would best suit our Aussie scenario?

Post by Keith » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:09 am

notasyoung wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:49 pm
Keith, I suppose you could say the the smooth bore shotgun, with a solid, is the next step in progression from a musket. It doesn't have the concern about powder choking the bore, because you use a smokeless powder, the reload is faster, but the characteristics of the round are similar to a musket, in that it is non-rotating, but generally slides down the barrel inside a cup, which falls away at exit. The advantage of a double barrel is two shots (two different chokes), and with two triggers, you can choose between a shot, or a solid, if that is how you set it up.
notasyoung wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:37 pm
Keith, .410 solid rounds are quite common, and sometimes quite expensive, often sold in 5 shot packets. I prefer Winchester. The 2 1/2 inch solids are usually 1/5 ounce, and fits the Marlin and Henry levers, and the 3" use 1/4 ounce solids. They are motoring out of the barrel, like a 3.57/.44M, but slow down fast as they aren't very aerodynamic. They are accurate out of some, not so much out of others. There are also two common OOO SG rounds around, in 2 1/2 and 3", Federal and Winchester. The federal seem to give a tighter pattern in my shotguns. You can also buy a Mould and cast your own solid, (or cheat and use a 38/40 slug, cause they're actually .40). Cast slugs really need a hollow base to stabilise. The .410 case can be fireformed in brass, out of a fired .303 case (makes a 2 1/2"), or 9.3x74R brass makes 3" (you need to take a couple of thou off the head with a lathe to get them to load easily, in mine), or I've read you can use .444 brass for about a 2" .410, also. You need to check the restriction of your barrel (the choke), when mucking around with this. The fins you see on some slugs are there to compress as it passes through the choke (not to make it spin). There are also quite a few 'self defence' rounds about, designed for the Taurus Judge pistol market in USA. Some of those actually perform well out of a shotgun. All these rounds have virtually no felt recoil, and use stuff all shot and powder, or a simple slug, which means they are fun and cheap to reload, which become important as you get older!! Bear in mind we are talking 'shotgun range' (e.g. close). I get away with loading my reloads a tad warm, with solids, because the .410 Marlin lever is actually a 336 rifle (higher pressure), with a barrel that looks like it was turned out of an axle! So pressure I can achieve with shotgun loads isn't that big an issue. Hope that helps.
Many thanks NAY, appreciate the information.
Regards, Keith.


Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less travelled by,
and that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost.
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com.au/
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Re: What firearms would best suit our Aussie scenario?

Post by notasyoung » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:24 pm

Mike_B wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:51 am
Thanks for that Oz judge, was quite informative for me who has very little practical experience of firearms. I have come across some other (US I think) posts that suggest the .22lr is a good basic rifle due to almost the same capability as the .22magnum, but ammo especially is much cheaper (is that the same in Aus?)
I agree lever actions appear to be a good choice if you had to make do with only one rifle.
A .22WMR is traveling at about the speed of a .22lr at the muzzle, at 100m. The .22lr is easy, and cheap (comparatively) to use because bricks of ammo are available (a brick is ten 50 round packets, usually), the .22lr round is a bit different in that it is pushed into the case, so doesn't always have a waterproof seal. It works well against small game, at short range, especially the simple lead hollow point, or a hollow point sub-sonic. The .22WMR is like centerfires, and the round is sealed (reasonably). Rifles in both calibres are usually ammunition sensitive, you need to find the one yours likes.
The .22lr often accepts cleaning less often (pull through or bore snake), as it has a waxy round, sometimes the less you clean the bore the better it shoots (quirk of the .22). The .22WMR likes to be kept clean, for accuracy. The .22lr is less noisy, and especially with sub-sonics, is less noisy and can be very accurate. The high velocity .22lr rounds go through the sound barrier, slowing to sub-sonic somewhere around 50-75m which affects accuracy.
The lever action is fun to shoot, but sometimes not as accurate, and tends to chew more ammo, because you load and keep shooting! Good quality bolt actions are generally more accurate, but then again I've got an old lithgow single shot my father bought new, when he was young, that can keep pace with the new you beaut rifles.
If money is no problem take a look at the new lithgow rifles, they're bolt actions, but VERY accurate, and well made. They accept a CZ magazine. The CZ in .22lr or .22WMR is also an excellent rifle. The older .22lr and .22WMR (Winchester 9422 ) Winchester lever guns worked well. The Henry .22lr is also popular.



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